tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post4426185736374194229..comments2023-05-11T00:49:36.314-07:00Comments on Ruminations on Computing: Hiring Great Testers - Tester RolesSteve Rowehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17905356014908630180noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-17291363073775547102007-01-16T11:40:50.000-08:002007-01-16T11:40:50.000-08:00I'm going to be doing a series not on testing ...I'm going to be doing a series not on testing but on the people that carry it out. This will be a postSteve Rowe's Bloghttp://blogs.msdn.com/steverowe/archive/2007/01/15/hiring-great-testers-series-index.aspxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-63305576465300397962007-01-16T17:19:11.000-08:002007-01-16T17:19:11.000-08:00This is informative blog entry. I liked it. It des...This is informative blog entry. I liked it. It describes different roles which are complementary to each other.<br>~NiteenNiteen Yemulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-74811802382709141342007-01-16T20:36:50.000-08:002007-01-16T20:36:50.000-08:00Surely, This blog information will help us to defi...Surely, This blog information will help us to define the dedicated , long term Automation team strategy. It will help us to build/developed an Ideal Automation Testers Team.Anand Deshpandenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-80926892774309940452007-01-17T05:49:26.000-08:002007-01-17T05:49:26.000-08:00Funny you should bring up this topic. I was at AW...Funny you should bring up this topic. <br>I was at AWTA (Bret Pettichord's Austin Workshop on Test Automation) this last weekend where we ended up discussing tester developers and developer testers in great detail.<br>That wasn't our original topic.<br>We were there to talk about open source test automation tools. But the more we talked about tools, the more we got into example test automation code, the more apparent it became that not just programming skills, but true development skills, are essential for good automated test development.<br>Being able to crank out a for loop isn't enough. Knowing multiple languages, understanding good code design, refactoring, and unit testing are important skills for the Test Developer.<br>That's a far cry from the ability to edit the code generated by a record-and-playback. And it's making me think a great deal about what skills someone doing test automation really needs to have these days.<br>I appreciate your post. It's added to my thinking...Elisabeth Hendricksonhttp://www.testobsessed.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-26467819693964034572007-01-17T06:04:42.000-08:002007-01-17T06:04:42.000-08:00Thanks Elisabeth. Are there any notes or papers o...Thanks Elisabeth. Are there any notes or papers or anything that were generated at this workshop that I might be able to access? The subject of what it takes to make a truly good test developer is one I think about a lot and I'm always looking for more input.SteveRowenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-29035003926571624622007-01-17T09:06:04.000-08:002007-01-17T09:06:04.000-08:00Steve asked, "Are there any notes or papers o...Steve asked, "Are there any notes or papers or anything that were generated at this workshop that I might be able to access?"<br>You'll find all the publicly available stuff here: http://awta.wikispaces.com/<br>See http://awta.wikispaces.com/Role+of+ToolSmith for some details on the tester-developer role...though not all the conversations were captured, so that's just a subset.<br>Perhaps the most significant thing (for me) that may come out of AWTA is...<br>...another conference. <br>Chris McMahon and I have started talking about what it would take to pull together a small conference for developer-tester-tester-developers focused specifically on programming interesting tests. Not on tools. Certainly not on commercial tools. But on good programming practices/tips/techniques for tests. (Our motto: "Show me the code!")<br>We'll see what happens. We're just noodling around with the idea for now...though if we get a bunch of emails along the lines of "Yes! Do it!" we might be persuaded to stop noodling and start planning...Elisabeth Hendricksonhttp://www.testobsessed.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-88793394364783007862007-01-17T10:16:53.000-08:002007-01-17T10:16:53.000-08:00As a programmer turned tester I enjoyed the 3 arti...As a programmer turned tester I enjoyed the 3 articles you linked and really looking forward to reading what else you have to say<br>Sadly where I work we're not in a position to hire great testers - or any more testers full stop - so any advice on getting the testers we do have to up their game would be useful<br>( and Elisabeth - stop noodling and Yes, Do it !!!)Phil Kirkhamhttp://www.testingreflections.com/blog/1577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-5343313116248935302007-01-17T11:00:56.000-08:002007-01-17T11:00:56.000-08:00Phil said, "any advice on getting the testers...Phil said, "any advice on getting the testers we do have to up their game"<br>What do you wish they knew how to do really well?<br>BTW, Brian Marick's book "Everyday Scripting with Ruby: For Teams, Testers, and You" is due out any day now. I read a pre-release copy. Great stuff. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0977616614<br>ElisabethElisabeth Hendricksonhttp://www.testobsessed.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-74788482730590081162007-01-17T11:12:36.000-08:002007-01-17T11:12:36.000-08:00I forgot to say... good post. It's raised a su...I forgot to say... good post. It's raised a subject close to my heart.<br>More and more testers are finding that in order to compete, they need to develop their coding skills... Hopefully, your post will help spark even more discussion on the subject.<br>Competing aside, the demand for tester-developers is growing simply due to necessity. Personally, I think it's a good thing since it is opening up new career paths for many.<br>All the best<br>AntonyAntony Marcanohttp://am.testingreflections.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-315238764343363682007-01-18T03:32:15.000-08:002007-01-18T03:32:15.000-08:00Thanks for an interesting post Steve.I generally w...Thanks for an interesting post Steve.<br>I generally work between all three roles you identified depending on what my project requires at any given time.<br>When working as a Test developer I find that I make much more effort to use an automated unit tests and automated build/test approach than many of the full time developers I work with. The majority of developers I work with do not use automated unit tests or automated build tests.<br>GlennGlenn Halsteadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-23430608900001891052007-01-18T09:26:08.000-08:002007-01-18T09:26:08.000-08:00Thanks for the in depth response Antony. I'm ...Thanks for the in depth response Antony. I'm glad you got something out of the post and also had a lot to add. I agree with some of what you said and disagree with other parts. Let me try to address some of your points.<br>1) In my mind I was highlighting people but I suppose most of what I said could apply to roles as well. Certainly when viewed as roles people can slot between them as the needs of the team vary. It is important to have people on a team willing to switch up roles. However, as I stated, trying to slot someone with a lot of development knowledge into a runtime role for a long period of time will usually cause discontent.<br>2) This is based on my experience but I suspect that most of what I say is applicable to all teams. It doesn't really matter to me whether the people doing the test development report to the dev manager or the test manager. They might even be people that take on the role of a dev at other times. I do have a disagreement with the concept of having the same person developing the code doing all of the test development. I'm not against unit testing done by dev. In fact I'm for it. However, I don't think unit testing is sufficient. Perhaps I'll post on that in more detail someday.<br>3) I had in mind more ad hoc testing when I wrote this. Exploratory testing is most often done in a simplistic, ad hoc manner. That isn't to say it is restricted to that, but more often than not this is how it is carried out in the real world. I didn't mean to imply that it was only simplistic. It can be done in great depth.<br>4) I didn't have an explicit hierarchy in mind when I wrote this but I will admit to a bias and thus an implicit hierarchy which probably pervades my writing. I don't think that there is necessarily a valuation difference between the roles. Certainly I state that each role is necessary on most teams. However, I believe it requires more training to be a test developer than to be a scripter and more training to be a scripter than a runtime tester. There are scripters and runtime testers who are highly specialized and highly skilled but the barrier to entry into those two roles is less than the the barrier to entry into test development.<br> I certainly agree that a team of only test developers is not optimal. Likewise a team of only runtime testers (or scripters) will not work as well as a balanced one either. I also agree that a good test developer should be able to play the role of a good runtime tester.SteveRowenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-8658841184168963662007-01-24T12:30:59.000-08:002007-01-24T12:30:59.000-08:00I am unconvinced that all roles must be filled by ...I am unconvinced that all roles must be filled by a test team; the context of the project is important. I don't think a compiler back end test team has a lot of use for a runtime tester as you've described them.Bill Wertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-736810000699453506.post-17143442266629282172007-01-24T12:47:07.000-08:002007-01-24T12:47:07.000-08:00A compiler back end test team probably still has a...A compiler back end test team probably still has an automated suite of tests that have to be run every day. The person responsible for making sure that they all run, that the machines are in the right shape, etc. is the person I see in the runtime role on that team. You are right though. It's not a huge need and it might even be small enough that another person on the team could absorb it. This falls under "Each project will require a different mix of people."SteveRowenoreply@blogger.com